Molgam Bot
26.08.2006, 01:20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnayan
That isn't my problem. My problem is that the tech was upposed to be in beta 2.
Either way, they need to do more than just upgrade the tech. I can hand a Ferrari to Hellen Keller - and all she'll do is crash it into a tree within 5 seconds of driving the fucker.
I never said the anim tech would be done in beta 2. Technology like that continues to evolve. We did put better animation tech and animation data into beta 2, and we're improving it in beta 3, and it will likely continue to improve up to launch and beyond. In fact, the entire game from a content, playability, polish, technology, and feature standpoint will continue to evolve, expand, and get better and better throughout beta and then for years after launch.
I know this is your hot button -- that MMOGs are never released 'finished'. To me, they need to be released with the feature sets they were advertised to have and if anything changes pre-release, the developer needs to be up front about it (as we have been). They need to be released with enough content and features to entertain people up until the majority of them are ready for a major expansion. They need to continue to have content added and balance and data and systems tweaked both before and after launch such that these games are living evolving entities, constantly improving and expanding, and also so that unexpected events can be responded to if necessary to safeguard the long term health of the game.
To me, what is most hated by you, and it seems to go way back to our working on EQ 1, is that we don't ever release anything that is completely done, in a box forever, fire and forget. The irony is that what seems to upset you the most if what excites me most of about this genre -- it's like a great book series -- it's like a real virtual world -- the game is never done! It's not a product, it's a service.
Now this can go wrong, sure. MMOGs can be released with lots of launch troubles, or horribly imbalanced, or without sufficient content. Too much time can be taken between expansions and people can end up becoming bored. The world, the engine technology, etc. can not be designed to grow along side the real world such that the game can't be refreshed visually and from a playability standpoint over the months and years MMOGs should be enjoyed.
We did an ok job with EQ 1. I'm damn proud of it, considering how long it was top dog, what a blast it was to play, and how long it's been around (it's still kicking!). And we *never* had any idea this would be true -- we didn't design EQ to last for years -- we didn't have expansions and new features in mind. Yet we, and then others who took up the reigns after we left, still managed to grow the game, polish it, improve it, etc. (no, not in every way I would have, but hey, like I've said a hundred times, it's their world now -- I left, after all).
But what has me so excited about Vanguard is that we took all that we learned from working on EQ 1, several of its expansions, plus being involved in EQ 2, Planetside, Sovereign, SW:G, and other games, and also have watched carefully games like WoW, FFXI, Lineage 1 & 2, etc. Our designers and management have several max level characters in all of those games, earned not bought, at least, if not more.
So we've taken all of this knowledge and personal experience and designed the technology and world and features in Vanguard such that when we release we're going to have an awesome game. I know you doubt this and have heard some negative things out of beta 2 NDA breakers (I wonder if you're heard anything from beta 3 players, heh). I know you think Diplomacy, for example, should have been planned perfectly from the beginning and not revised several times during beta. I now you don't agree with a long beta where we interact with players and make all sorts of changes to the game, some small, and some even big -- you'd rather we test all of this in-house somehow and then have a short beta with no NDA that is really more of a preview. It bothers you that we post 'work in progress' that clearly has flaws in it. You don't have faith that we have time to complete our goals and are convinced that we either won't ship or will ship with so much less than we've promised that there won't really be much of a game there at all.
I can't really respond to this other than to say check out what we've accomplished so far -- compare the early screenshots and movies of the game to a year ago, and then those that came out this E3 with what has just come out. You can *see* the progress -- it's right there. And the beautiful thing about the last phases of MMOG development is that your team is more and more familiar with the tools, pieces and parts are coming together, you have lots of beta testers and great feedback, and so what you get done and the rate at which you get it done continues to increase in both quality and quantity.
I know you still won't believe this. I do sincerely hope, no matter how angry you seem, that you enjoy Vanguard after its launched. You may not, because it is so clearly designed to not only be a great game at launch but also to evolve so much further post-launch that you may feel we should have stayed in production another 2 or 3 years. I really don't know. But at least I am here letting you know our production methodology and being up front about it.
Yes, Vanguard will be ready when we launch in this Winter. No, it won't be perfect. Yes, it will be missing some things we hoped would be in it, but we will make sure to continue to be up front with everyone about these items. Also, however, it will include things that I didn't think would make it in by launch, as well as systems and technology and features that are *better* than what I would have thought.
But at the same time the Vanguard of 2008 will hardly resemble the Vanguard of 2007. Again, we have learned from the past. We have features and ideas to build upon this solid foundation that could literally take us the next 5+ years to implement. And I'm not just talking about a few ideas scratched on a notepad -- I'm talking about design and vision documents hundreds of pages long. We have entire continents, empires, player and NPC races planned out for after launch. We're going to take mounts and ships and turn them from merely vehicles into full on combat systems -- ships will fire cannons and aerial combat will have its own rule set, but still integrate into the existing game as opposed to being shoe horned in because we planned ahead. Bits and pieces of lore and architecture you run across in the game when it comes out you'll find one day explaining the back-story of an entire expansion... entire lost empires and civilizations.
You'll see Diplomacy evolve from a new approach to factions and non-combat character advancement into an entire system involving player run towns and an RTS element to appeal to more strategy oriented players. You'll see the biggest and best dungeons that are level 50 (e.g. end game) material at launch looked dwarfed and almost pathetic when you eventually explore vast under worlds and cities floating in the sky (our 2km by 2km 'chunks' our seamless world is created out of have Z coordinates too -- and while we won't use them at launch, the code and data is there so we can certainly use them in the future) -- imagine flying 8 km up into the air to explore a city in the clouds!
All of this is possible and, yes, planned for post launch (along with a lot of things I can't reveal because a. we don't need to see it in other games and b. we keep back information we're either not positive about or c. we hold back some exciting information for exclusive coverage in the major magazines and on the major gaming sites).
I look at EQ and the last 7 years and I am blown away because I can see what can be done by determined and talented people even with a system and foundation that was never designed for the long term and was also designed by MMOG newbies -- a bunch of MUD geeks who got a lucky chance to make what became the king of 3d MMOG for many years -- yes, us. And when I see all that that game has become, ignoring the problems and looking at the good, I can't help but be blown away by Vanguard's potential not just at release but a year from now, 3 years from now, 5 years from now -- again, the technology, the planning, unique ideas on how to preserve and extend content, slow MUDflation, refresh the old world while still adding to the existing world...
All of this seems to either bother you or you just think I'm full of it. Again, I don't know why you are so angry and skeptical -- we made our fair share of mistakes with EQ, and I'm sorry if they hurt you at some point, but I can assure you we never meant to hurt anybody and our decisions, even our tough ones, whether wrong or right looking back now with 20/20 hindsight, were always made out of love for the game. So I can understand being upset, not liking us, not agreeing with our production methodology. I can understand skepticism -- that worries me the least, because the proof is in the pudding, and we'll see who was right about Vanguard soon enough. But I wish there wasn't this anger. We're just gamers like you and we love MMOGs like you and we're doing our best. Some people will criticize me for feeding the trolls and even responding to you, and I don't most of the time, but man, whatever it was, a single event or a series of events... whatever it was, while I know for a fact there was no malice on our part (and I know -- I was on watch -- I was calling the shots) -- I apologize anyway.
Please accept that apology. No, I don't say that because I fear your posts or your negativity. No, it's not to make another buck. I don't want you to stop being critical nor skeptical, and please call us on issues you think are or could be a problem. But as for the other emotional stuff, hey man, peace http://www.fohguild.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
<div class="smallfont"> Last edited by Aradune Mithara : Today at 04:25 PM.
Weiterlesen... (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/showthread.php?p=548642#post548642)
Originally Posted by Utnayan
That isn't my problem. My problem is that the tech was upposed to be in beta 2.
Either way, they need to do more than just upgrade the tech. I can hand a Ferrari to Hellen Keller - and all she'll do is crash it into a tree within 5 seconds of driving the fucker.
I never said the anim tech would be done in beta 2. Technology like that continues to evolve. We did put better animation tech and animation data into beta 2, and we're improving it in beta 3, and it will likely continue to improve up to launch and beyond. In fact, the entire game from a content, playability, polish, technology, and feature standpoint will continue to evolve, expand, and get better and better throughout beta and then for years after launch.
I know this is your hot button -- that MMOGs are never released 'finished'. To me, they need to be released with the feature sets they were advertised to have and if anything changes pre-release, the developer needs to be up front about it (as we have been). They need to be released with enough content and features to entertain people up until the majority of them are ready for a major expansion. They need to continue to have content added and balance and data and systems tweaked both before and after launch such that these games are living evolving entities, constantly improving and expanding, and also so that unexpected events can be responded to if necessary to safeguard the long term health of the game.
To me, what is most hated by you, and it seems to go way back to our working on EQ 1, is that we don't ever release anything that is completely done, in a box forever, fire and forget. The irony is that what seems to upset you the most if what excites me most of about this genre -- it's like a great book series -- it's like a real virtual world -- the game is never done! It's not a product, it's a service.
Now this can go wrong, sure. MMOGs can be released with lots of launch troubles, or horribly imbalanced, or without sufficient content. Too much time can be taken between expansions and people can end up becoming bored. The world, the engine technology, etc. can not be designed to grow along side the real world such that the game can't be refreshed visually and from a playability standpoint over the months and years MMOGs should be enjoyed.
We did an ok job with EQ 1. I'm damn proud of it, considering how long it was top dog, what a blast it was to play, and how long it's been around (it's still kicking!). And we *never* had any idea this would be true -- we didn't design EQ to last for years -- we didn't have expansions and new features in mind. Yet we, and then others who took up the reigns after we left, still managed to grow the game, polish it, improve it, etc. (no, not in every way I would have, but hey, like I've said a hundred times, it's their world now -- I left, after all).
But what has me so excited about Vanguard is that we took all that we learned from working on EQ 1, several of its expansions, plus being involved in EQ 2, Planetside, Sovereign, SW:G, and other games, and also have watched carefully games like WoW, FFXI, Lineage 1 & 2, etc. Our designers and management have several max level characters in all of those games, earned not bought, at least, if not more.
So we've taken all of this knowledge and personal experience and designed the technology and world and features in Vanguard such that when we release we're going to have an awesome game. I know you doubt this and have heard some negative things out of beta 2 NDA breakers (I wonder if you're heard anything from beta 3 players, heh). I know you think Diplomacy, for example, should have been planned perfectly from the beginning and not revised several times during beta. I now you don't agree with a long beta where we interact with players and make all sorts of changes to the game, some small, and some even big -- you'd rather we test all of this in-house somehow and then have a short beta with no NDA that is really more of a preview. It bothers you that we post 'work in progress' that clearly has flaws in it. You don't have faith that we have time to complete our goals and are convinced that we either won't ship or will ship with so much less than we've promised that there won't really be much of a game there at all.
I can't really respond to this other than to say check out what we've accomplished so far -- compare the early screenshots and movies of the game to a year ago, and then those that came out this E3 with what has just come out. You can *see* the progress -- it's right there. And the beautiful thing about the last phases of MMOG development is that your team is more and more familiar with the tools, pieces and parts are coming together, you have lots of beta testers and great feedback, and so what you get done and the rate at which you get it done continues to increase in both quality and quantity.
I know you still won't believe this. I do sincerely hope, no matter how angry you seem, that you enjoy Vanguard after its launched. You may not, because it is so clearly designed to not only be a great game at launch but also to evolve so much further post-launch that you may feel we should have stayed in production another 2 or 3 years. I really don't know. But at least I am here letting you know our production methodology and being up front about it.
Yes, Vanguard will be ready when we launch in this Winter. No, it won't be perfect. Yes, it will be missing some things we hoped would be in it, but we will make sure to continue to be up front with everyone about these items. Also, however, it will include things that I didn't think would make it in by launch, as well as systems and technology and features that are *better* than what I would have thought.
But at the same time the Vanguard of 2008 will hardly resemble the Vanguard of 2007. Again, we have learned from the past. We have features and ideas to build upon this solid foundation that could literally take us the next 5+ years to implement. And I'm not just talking about a few ideas scratched on a notepad -- I'm talking about design and vision documents hundreds of pages long. We have entire continents, empires, player and NPC races planned out for after launch. We're going to take mounts and ships and turn them from merely vehicles into full on combat systems -- ships will fire cannons and aerial combat will have its own rule set, but still integrate into the existing game as opposed to being shoe horned in because we planned ahead. Bits and pieces of lore and architecture you run across in the game when it comes out you'll find one day explaining the back-story of an entire expansion... entire lost empires and civilizations.
You'll see Diplomacy evolve from a new approach to factions and non-combat character advancement into an entire system involving player run towns and an RTS element to appeal to more strategy oriented players. You'll see the biggest and best dungeons that are level 50 (e.g. end game) material at launch looked dwarfed and almost pathetic when you eventually explore vast under worlds and cities floating in the sky (our 2km by 2km 'chunks' our seamless world is created out of have Z coordinates too -- and while we won't use them at launch, the code and data is there so we can certainly use them in the future) -- imagine flying 8 km up into the air to explore a city in the clouds!
All of this is possible and, yes, planned for post launch (along with a lot of things I can't reveal because a. we don't need to see it in other games and b. we keep back information we're either not positive about or c. we hold back some exciting information for exclusive coverage in the major magazines and on the major gaming sites).
I look at EQ and the last 7 years and I am blown away because I can see what can be done by determined and talented people even with a system and foundation that was never designed for the long term and was also designed by MMOG newbies -- a bunch of MUD geeks who got a lucky chance to make what became the king of 3d MMOG for many years -- yes, us. And when I see all that that game has become, ignoring the problems and looking at the good, I can't help but be blown away by Vanguard's potential not just at release but a year from now, 3 years from now, 5 years from now -- again, the technology, the planning, unique ideas on how to preserve and extend content, slow MUDflation, refresh the old world while still adding to the existing world...
All of this seems to either bother you or you just think I'm full of it. Again, I don't know why you are so angry and skeptical -- we made our fair share of mistakes with EQ, and I'm sorry if they hurt you at some point, but I can assure you we never meant to hurt anybody and our decisions, even our tough ones, whether wrong or right looking back now with 20/20 hindsight, were always made out of love for the game. So I can understand being upset, not liking us, not agreeing with our production methodology. I can understand skepticism -- that worries me the least, because the proof is in the pudding, and we'll see who was right about Vanguard soon enough. But I wish there wasn't this anger. We're just gamers like you and we love MMOGs like you and we're doing our best. Some people will criticize me for feeding the trolls and even responding to you, and I don't most of the time, but man, whatever it was, a single event or a series of events... whatever it was, while I know for a fact there was no malice on our part (and I know -- I was on watch -- I was calling the shots) -- I apologize anyway.
Please accept that apology. No, I don't say that because I fear your posts or your negativity. No, it's not to make another buck. I don't want you to stop being critical nor skeptical, and please call us on issues you think are or could be a problem. But as for the other emotional stuff, hey man, peace http://www.fohguild.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
<div class="smallfont"> Last edited by Aradune Mithara : Today at 04:25 PM.
Weiterlesen... (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/showthread.php?p=548642#post548642)